tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post1790466024592815621..comments2023-12-18T03:49:48.800-05:00Comments on quakerthink: Not One of Uskevin robertshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-26824164661886494582010-04-07T08:55:48.281-04:002010-04-07T08:55:48.281-04:00What a wonderful blog post, Kevin.
I like the t...What a wonderful blog post, Kevin. <br /><br />I like the thing Rainer Maria Rilke said in "Letters To A Young Poet":<br />"Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer."<br /><br />What I find about moral issues and decisionmaking is that life is shaped by the exceptions as well as the rules; so that if we always remain open to it questioning us we have a hope of remaining sensitive to what is required of us in the moment.Pen Wilcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13818227904371811230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-57829138554965575712010-04-06T17:48:00.355-04:002010-04-06T17:48:00.355-04:00I'd like to offer a different angle on Kevin&#...I'd like to offer a different angle on Kevin's question about whether the embryo or fetus is one of us. In several places in this discussion, when people were discussing the person within whom the fetus resides, even while setting up this person as someone with conflicting rights, they nevertheless used the word "mother." This is common. <br /><br />The word "mother" implies a relationship to somebody, as a matter of definition. The use of the word implies that somebody is there. So we are not only discussing the fate of that somebody, but the tearing apart of a relationship. <br /><br />That relationship may be the only one where bodies are so intertwined that one of them can't survive without being attached to the other for the time being, but this isn't just any old Person A and Person B. These are mother and child. As soon as the word "mother" is used, then I think we need to devote some serious thought to what we've just said about what is going on. Can asserting a conflict in rights be a gentle approach? How often is the actual conflict between the mother and a callous society?<br /><br />I'll stop there, but re-iterate what Bill said about the prolifequakers.org web-site having a lot more discussion and links. I manage that site, so if anyone sees things missing there or wants to contribute any writing, please let me know at admin@prolifequakers.org.Rachel MacNairnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-14152062929981524272010-04-03T21:46:33.038-04:002010-04-03T21:46:33.038-04:00PS. But thinning out the deer is worthwhile too. I...PS. But thinning out the deer is worthwhile too. I remember that from when I lived in central PA, where cutesy Bambi had become a major environmental & highway threat.<br /><br />They're headed our way in SE Carolina, but not quite here yet . . .Chuck Fagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049779603153152188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-50362028338731064032010-04-03T21:43:07.686-04:002010-04-03T21:43:07.686-04:00Yeah, I wondered if the "Opening Day" re...Yeah, I wondered if the "Opening Day" reference might be too arcane, but figured it was worth a shot. It's no-military anyway.Chuck Fagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049779603153152188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-11147193300515373572010-04-03T18:49:04.161-04:002010-04-03T18:49:04.161-04:00Chuck, I have to admit I didn't have a clue wh...Chuck, I have to admit I didn't have a clue what "Opening Day" was. Around where we live "Opening Day" mostly means that we listen to shotguns all day as the deer get thinned out.<br /><br />Is "Alice in Chains" mellow enough? I usually don't need to listen to anything, as after a week or two of driving I find I'm talking to myself more or less continuouslykevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-67234929854205901422010-04-03T05:01:30.785-04:002010-04-03T05:01:30.785-04:00Kevin:
Three quick things, one minor, two major.
...Kevin:<br /><br />Three quick things, one minor, two major.<br /><br />The minor thing: My response to your (now deleted) comments relating to me, which is: "No sweat"; not a problem.<br /><br />The first major thing: For pete's sake, get some rest, then drive safely. May I recommend listening to something mellowing on the road, at least now and then?<br /><br />After all, you showed perfect timing in your plea for forgiveness. How could one refuse on this Sabbath morning, of all mornings, which is the eve of that most brightening dawn, when all things true and pure and uplifting begin again??<br /><br />That's the second major thing: Not that paganized festival the world calls Easter. I'm talking about Opening Day, which is also tomorrow.<br /><br />"Behold, I make all things new." Surely that was a prophecy of the fresh-minted major league season. <br /><br />Baseball on XM radio; that's the ticket. Sunday night, Red Sox & Yankees, Fenway Park.Chuck Fagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049779603153152188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-76152157784923182882010-04-01T21:58:52.604-04:002010-04-01T21:58:52.604-04:00That's the nature of the corporate witness, wh...That's the nature of the corporate witness, which is why I consider unity so important'<br /><br />Unity isn't the same as unanimity.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-62735642129267038982010-04-01T05:32:46.760-04:002010-04-01T05:32:46.760-04:00Kevin, that took guts and integrity.
I admit tha...Kevin, that took guts and integrity. <br /><br />I admit that I was really put off the conversation, but I've read your stuff before and it seemed way out of character for you to react as you did, so I came back to see how it had panned out. It makes my heart glad to see such good examples of kind eldering and ownership of responsibility. <br /><br />It's much more valuable to me to see people have uncharacteristic blips and how they're dealt with with honesty and kindness than to see people being invariably on the right track - it reminds me that I don't have to be perfect, and gives me tools to deal with the times I find difficult. Classic exercise in how to respond to momentary lapses gratefully received :)Karennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-67605513765554090952010-03-31T22:56:19.216-04:002010-03-31T22:56:19.216-04:00Kevin, I appreciate your gracious retraction of yo...Kevin, I appreciate your gracious retraction of your comments. It's so easy to fire off ill-considered words on the internet, especially when one is feeling grumpy to begin with. I know I've done it myself a time or two. Hope you get some rest and make it home safely.naturalmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15594383847916759287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-27996850772429381082010-03-31T16:22:51.406-04:002010-03-31T16:22:51.406-04:00Those last two comments were after I read the ones...Those last two comments were after I read the ones here from other people. I'm obviously still bushed. I've steered this trailer486 miles since two this morning, and have 505 more to do tomorrow.<br /><br />I've modified this last comment to say that I have deleted the comments I made about Chuck that were untrue and rude to him, because there is no reason to have them up and it merely continues the injustice. I have left the discussion of them in place, because that is necessary to the integrity of the conversation.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-54382791384121471292010-03-31T15:17:32.531-04:002010-03-31T15:17:32.531-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-6961628046095591782010-03-31T15:10:42.584-04:002010-03-31T15:10:42.584-04:00Now, all you other folks, including those who were...Now, all you other folks, including those who were kind enough to elder me-- NaturalMom, Ben, and Cat-- but not limited to them, I apologize to you folks, too.<br /><br />The commonly hard-edged cut-and-thrust of internet debate is something that can be fun when the subject matter is a game, or when ideas are being tested against each other in an intellectual sparring contest where there are no stakes and the exchange is specifically a proving or tempering process<br /><br />That isn't the atmosphere that I try to encourage here, and I regret being the poster boy for human frailty and egotism issues. It will not happen again, and is serving as a lesson to me that my measure has been sufficiently increased so that this behavior is no longer tolerable anywhere, much less in a public conversation where people are wary of being treated poorly in the first place.<br /><br />I am going to do better, and I don't ask you to bear with me, because you won't have to.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-74819129850513044572010-03-31T14:58:19.868-04:002010-03-31T14:58:19.868-04:00Chuck, I would like to apologize again, and point ...Chuck, I would like to apologize again, and point out that you have exhibited a great deal more grace in this matter than I did.<br /><br />I don't offer this as an excuse, for which I don't have any, but the past week I've worked 65 hours and driven 2000 miles across 12 states. I'm worn out, and my brain short-circuits and makes faulty connections when I do this. I made a number of very obvious and very incorrect connections, and you were the innocent target.<br /><br />Again, I am sorry, and you did nothing to deserve being treated badly by a jerk.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-29968080751871618432010-03-31T14:45:00.597-04:002010-03-31T14:45:00.597-04:00Okay, listen, please. I have been out and away fro...Okay, listen, please. I have been out and away from net access in the Carolinas for three days moving telecommunications cable, and I haven't had net access to come back here and apologize to Chuck, although I wanted to almost immediately.<br /><br />I haven't read anything in this apparently active comment string yet, so I may have to apologize all over again to everybody.<br /><br />Chuck Fager, I was rude to you and my remarks were thoughtless, inappropriate, unkind, unfriendly, and untrue. You deserved nothing of what I said and I sincerely regret saying it. I apologize and ask your forgiveness for my lapse of both common sense and common decency.<br /><br />I try very hard to keep that kind of poor practice out of this conversational community, and the fact that I introduced it myself is quite humbling. I am truly sorry.<br /><br />I am indeed a worm.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-36989433113993258402010-03-31T00:50:55.759-04:002010-03-31T00:50:55.759-04:00Kevin wrote:
Dropping in on a public conversation...Kevin wrote:<br /><br /><i>Dropping in on a public conversation, dumping out a gunny sack of logical fallacies and poorly supported opinions, and then moving on to new challenges is not how Friends traditionally seek reconciliation on difficult issues.</i><br /><br /><b>I'll take that as an indication that you disagree with the views I expressed. There's an explanation that rightfully goes with that indication, pointing up the alleged fallacies; perhaps we'll hear it.<br /></b><br />Kevin continued:<br /><br /><i> If you feel you have more important conflicts to adjudicate now that you've rendered judgment on this one, I understand.</i><br /><br /><b> I don't think I "rendered judgment" here more than anyone else did. I tried to describe my convictions on the matter at hand, and, in a summary fashion, the basis for them. I don't consider that the end of the matter.<br /><br />But yes, I have a lot going on; the posts here took much time, usually late at night, from a pretty full schedule. However, I'm not adjudicating anything; nobody appointed me"a judge over Israel."<br /></b>Chuck Fagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049779603153152188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-47735830042598366142010-03-31T00:41:07.837-04:002010-03-31T00:41:07.837-04:00Thanks, first, to Cat for her comments. In particu...Thanks, first, to Cat for her comments. In particular:<br /><br /><< . . .<i> If I'm understanding him, Chuck is not so much saying that Unity is unimportant among Friends as that taking the time it really takes to actually reach that Unity--75 years in the case of slavery, as he pointed out--and being honest about the differences among us in the meantime, is more important than faux Unity. (Chuck, I'm sorry if that's inaccurate; I will say, however, that your words suggested that idea to me.)</i>>><br /><br /><b> Close enough. I would say that in many situations, and on many issues, disunity (or diversity of views) has been our <i>condition</i>, like it or not.<br /><br /> In some cases (slavery) unity finally came, after a fashion. In others (war), the truth is that unity has been elusive for 300-plus years. <br /><br />So as a practical matter -- certainly in the remainder of my lifetime -- I either figure out how to live within the condition of disunity about war (which is a life-and-death matter, let's remember), or walk. Unity won't come because I demand it. And the alternative -- unity by purging all those "out of unity" (i.e., disagreeing with me)is one I would avoid at almost all costs. Paul had it right: "bear one another's burdens."</b><br /><br />You added:<br /><br /><i>And I'll agree. Some of the most profoundly important spiritual experiences in my life have been wrenched from painful meetings for business where we have wrestled with angels and with each other, seeking hard to stay present with how difficult it can be to hear each other, and to be both passionate defenders of Truth, and yet stay low to it.</i><br /><br /><b> Yep. One such experience for me came when a CIA employee applied for membership in my meeting. It took us 18 months to work through it all; in the end we lost two members, one who said "Never!" and one who said "Absolutely!" <i> Which brings me to Rule #1 in Dealing With Quakers, which is: Thee Can't Please them All.</i> But it was still a very profound experience of striving together.<br /><br />Will something like that happen here? Jury's still out, I think . . . </b>Chuck Fagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049779603153152188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-32737668918373935662010-03-30T12:33:01.004-04:002010-03-30T12:33:01.004-04:00Oh, hush, y'all.
Kevin... you snarked. Hate ...Oh, hush, y'all.<br /><br />Kevin... you snarked. Hate to say it, buddy, but you went all snarky on Chuck. It's OK for him to post lengthy comments here, even if their logic seems flawed to you, and then not have time to pursue a more formal writing project on the subject.<br /><br />Ben... so he snarked. That's not the same as bullshitting somebody.<br /><br />Nine-tenths of the time, when somebody offends us, their intentions are not the naughty ones we impute to them. <br /><br />The thing is, this business of listening across our preconceptions, intellectual hangups, preferred modes of thought, and so forth, is really HARD. <br /><br />It is not made easier by trying to do it on a subject we have idealistic and loving reasons for caring passionately about--on opposite sides of an ideological divide. However, to the best of my ability to discern, everyone here is at least <i>trying</i> to listen openly and honestly. (Yes, <i>everyone</i>, including that person whose comment just offended you so much! Yes, I mean you, you over there by the computer!)<br /><br />If loving our neighbor was easy, <i>everyone</i> would be doing it. As always, it only looks easy in theory. In practice... well, the devil really is in the details. It is so hard not to lose patience and mouth off!<br /><br />Try to be open to the new thing, though. Seriously.<br /><br />I think, Kevin, if I'm understanding him, Chuck is not so much saying that Unity is unimportant among Friends as that taking the time it really takes to actually reach that Unity--75 years in the case of slavery, as he pointed out--and being honest about the differences among us in the meantime, is more important than faux Unity. (Chuck, I'm sorry if that's inaccurate; I will say, however, that your words suggested that idea to me.)<br /><br />And I'll agree. Some of the most profoundly important spiritual experiences in my life have been wrenched from painful meetings for business where we have wrestled with angels and with each other, seeking hard to stay present with how difficult it can be to hear each other, and to be both passionate defenders of Truth, and yet stay low to it.<br /><br />Along those lines, I have heard a new thing to me in this discussion, as a pro-choice Friend, around the distinction between what is right and what is legal. I'm going to sit with it for a while, and season it before perhaps sharing it; I need to see if it has Light.<br /><br />But I want everyone here to know, I at least am wrestling to stay connected with you and with Spirit in this discussion. And while I don't think we will find Unity for the entire RSoF in a comments thread on a blog, I <i>do</i> think we may find ourselves a little closer to being able to hear God speaking to us, and maybe to being able to allow God to gather us and lead us in the future on this subject or another.<br /><br />So let's try to stay faithful, OK? Intellectually honest, yeah, but that's not enough; let's try to keep on listening in love, <i>especially</i> when our own exasperation and impatience on behalf of the Truth we love tempts us to forget the Other loves it, too.<br /><br />(And PLEASE forgive me if this comes across as smarmy; I really don't mean it to be.)Cat C-B (and/or Peter B)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-37940109270772904132010-03-30T02:57:46.162-04:002010-03-30T02:57:46.162-04:00Wow Kevin,
So this was all bullshit. You, as usual...Wow Kevin,<br />So this was all bullshit. You, as usual with this kind of concern trolling are simply pushing your (yawn) feelings. Thank the goddess it's so easy to see through this kind of what? thuggishness. One more time. This is not ours or your business. Sit quietly and let yourself go to the reality of this. There is a world outside your dang haid. Listen, listen, listen.<br />Last of old,<br />BenBen Schultznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-55267656922066391962010-03-29T23:45:00.330-04:002010-03-29T23:45:00.330-04:00Wow, Kevin, I have to say that your last comment f...Wow, Kevin, I have to say that your last comment feels to me to be quite unfair to Chuck. It seems to me that he has some well-reasoned arguments that he took the time to lay out here in a very civil and respectful tone. He certainly gave it more time and deliberation than most others commenting, including myself. I don't see how his inability to take you up on your offer immediately constitutes having "more important conflicts to adjudicate now that you've rendered judgment on this one". <br /><br />It's hard to have a conversation about a tough topic when someone's sincerely and respectfully offered opinions are so harshly and insultingly dismissed. I know I am feeling much more wary now about engaging further in this conversation.naturalmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15594383847916759287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-25660636919910405602010-03-29T18:34:01.188-04:002010-03-29T18:34:01.188-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-33639558471283232142010-03-29T13:51:31.550-04:002010-03-29T13:51:31.550-04:00Kevin wrote:
<< I have no way of contacting...Kevin wrote:<br /><br /><< <i>I have no way of contacting you privately, which was my first preference, but in the absence of that, I would like to invite you to put your thoughts on this topic in order, write a blog post about them, and send them to me. I will post them verbatim here, with a short bio for those of us who don't know who you are, and invite comments.<br /><br />The only stipulation that I would impose is that the subject matter stay the same: what is the nature of that which is being destroyed-- human, person, citizen, blood spot, or blob, and how do we distinguish between what that item is, and other things that we automatically decide merit protective consideration. Many very important and excrutiatingly painful secondary topics have been brought up in this comment section so far, and they all have a place in the conversation. But as I pointed out in the original post, how we deal with them changes depending upon how we deal with the first question, which is still, what is it?</i> >><br /><br />Kevin, my email is chuckfager at aol dot com, and I have a blog at www.afriendlyletter.com .<br /><br />I'm not sure when I can get to the task you've proposed; my schedule is pretty full too, and the comments I added took a good bit of time. I also included a link to my longer writing on the topic. Thanks for the invitation, and we'll see.<br /><br />Meantime, I think if you review my comments, you'll see that I have tried to stick pretty close to the specific topic you identified. <br /><br />I've avoided <i> Roe </i> and other legal stuff, the issues about women's rights, "wantedness" and many other things, not because they don't deserve attention, but to be responsive to the main concern you posed.Chuck Fagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049779603153152188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-54891378140731344412010-03-28T20:55:54.588-04:002010-03-28T20:55:54.588-04:00Hi Karen.
Yes.
That's what it's all abou...Hi Karen.<br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />That's what it's all about.<br /><br />Please stick around.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-54194122581772981022010-03-28T17:49:29.714-04:002010-03-28T17:49:29.714-04:00I can't say how many times I've begun to w...I can't say how many times I've begun to write something in response to this discussion and deleted it because it rambled, became too long or too dogged or tangled up.<br /><br />My thinking right now is that there are a lot of hard issues surrounding access to reproduction and abortion that seem to fit more like a complex Venn diagram than a comfy jigsaw puzzle. <br /><br />Right now, I am valuing this discussion, and sitting with the thought that perhaps the unity that can be reached on this issue is the unity in listening to each other as individuals and to the Light as a group. And I find myself wondering whether that unity is not far more important than any other.<br /><br />KarenKarennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-20896871753186880142010-03-27T18:18:40.615-04:002010-03-27T18:18:40.615-04:00Natural, you can bring in the flamers. They have t...Natural, you can bring in the flamers. They have to be included sooner or later, because this is a concern that ultimately affects everybody, although I am directing it right now at the Society of Friends, which still seems to me to be trying to balance two horses at once.<br /><br />I don't tolerate rudeness, and I have a delete button that speaks volumes for me.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4362492544828158978.post-58264870771919762702010-03-27T16:23:10.679-04:002010-03-27T16:23:10.679-04:00Ivan Illich and Barbara Duden raise some pretty im...Ivan Illich and Barbara Duden raise some pretty important questions about the language we use to think about these things, and the phenomenology of pregnancy.<br /><br />They show that this idea of something called "life" is a fairly recent invention, where for most of time we called a thing living or not... now we have a need to abstract and universalize it. It's a problem, especially for a church that proclaims a greater sovereign than the state, to think of ourselves as "citizens," a nationalist construct. Thinking of the contents of the pregnant woman's womb as what Illich called "an embryonic citizen" seems, then, very problematic.<br /><br />The criminalization of sin has not worked very well so far.<br /><br />-Stan GoffSherry Goffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14608909394857360005noreply@blogger.com